It’s not too often you get to talk with someone who truly changed your life, but it happened to me a few days ago when I got to have an extended conversation with directorFrank Oz. If you’re not familiar with Frank Oz’sincredible resume, he’s the voice of Yoda inStar Wars, Fozzie Bear, Miss Piggy and Animal inThe Muppets, and other unforgettable characters.
The reason he got on the phone with me was to talk about his new documentary,Muppet Guys Talking, which was conceived of byVictoria Labalmeand available on the websiteMuppetGuysTalking.com. The fantastic documentary features five of the original Muppet performers –Jerry Nelson,Fran Brill,Dave Goelz,Bill Barrettaand Frank Oz – and you can watch them discuss the impactJim Hensonhad on their lives and work, share some fantastic stories on the making of their memorable characters, and it also features some cool behind-the-scenes footage I’d never seen.
During the interview, Oz talked about how the project came together, where they got the vintage footage, how he decided on the length, what he learned from early friends and family screenings and how that changed the film, why Jim Henson was such a great leader, how he created some of his iconic characters, the importance of puppet construction, whyThe Muppetswas never written for kids, some of the crazy things they did to get the shot, and so much more. Trust me, if you’re a fan ofThe Muppets, I strongly recommend checking it out. You’ll be very happy you did.
Collider: First of all, I really enjoyed seeing you guys just reminiscing and talking, and I think my favorite thing was getting to see, besides you guys talking, was getting to see the vintage footage of a read through with you and Jim Henson just doing a read through of an episode. I loved seeing that footage. Was it hard to locate that kind of footage?
FRANK OZ: Actually, that particular one was wonderfully easy because that was a60 Minutesreport that was on the Muppets with Morley Safer. I just called CBS, the exec there, Jeff Fager,I think his name is, and because it was me he said, “Yeah, sure of course.” So, that was the easiest one of all.
You have some vintage footage in there. Can you talk about how you wanted it to be in terms of balancing- showing footage from the past and having the conversation?
FRANK OZ: Well, actually, the footage was completely dependent on the conversation and when we discussed, for instance using that as an example, if we discuss Jim always loving having fun, that was an opportunity to show that…because Jim had fun. It really depended upon which direction the conversation went. Whenever the conversation went in an area that we could show it, then we found some footage for it.
The running time is a little over 60 minutes, and I’m just wondering if you ever thought about stretching it out with more vintage footage or did you always envision this kind of running time?
FRANK OZ: We didn’t envision any running time. I don’t believe in stretching things out. I believe in- it’s as long as it takes, and if it was two hours and it’s organic then they get two hours. If it was organic only in 30 minutes, then make it 30 minutes. It told us how long it was supposed to be. By the editing, we just continued telling the story and it just ended up 65 minutes. It’s just the result of choices for the quality of the film and nothing else.
When you actually filmed that how long did you film? Was it an all-day thing? Was it a few days?
FRANK OZ: It was ten hours of footage. It was all day. We have extra footage that we’re going through and that extra footage- which is some great stuff we couldn’t use- that’ll be in some of the bonus features. So, that should be fun for this and there’s some great stuff there. We shot ten hours in a loft in Manhattan and we had one camera on sticks for a wide shot, and I had two other cameras on rolling sticks, and another handheld on sticks and one completely roaming around. So, I had five cameras and I didn’t give any instructions. I just said, “Just shoot it,” you know.
I’m obsessed with the editing process. What was the last five or ten minutes you took out of the movie and why?
FRANK OZ: Wow. What a good question. The trouble is I’m trying to remember now. You know, it’s not that we took five or ten minutes out, it’s not that simple. You can’t take a hunk out. Once you take a hunk out, you’ve taken a piece out of a jigsaw puzzle. One has to take out those things that- we have to be left with transitions and we have to be left with transitions that lead to the next organic piece. So, there was no five minutes we took out. We really just- it’s not that we took it out, it’s just that we didn’t use those pieces that we felt fit. It’s really a field story about sculpting an elephant- take away all those things that don’t look like an elephant.
Did you do any sort of friends and family screenings of the film, and what did you learn from those screenings that impacted the finished film?
FRANK OZ: Actually, we had some screening for friends, the Pennybakers of Victoria, the one who produces this and my wife, she had done a film with the Pennybakers, and so she was friendly with them. So, they came in and gave us some thoughts and the biggest thought was, we did not have the NBC pipes first. The Pennybakers said it needed something in the beginning and other people said it needed something in the beginning. So that was the biggest change; we got permission from NBC to do those pipes. That was a result of- not the friends and family- but people whose opinions we trust in the industry.
What was the original beginning that you had, prior to that beginning?
FRANK OZ: It was the guys started talking and it just-it didn’t set the landscape; you know?
Sure. I actually really like the beginning that you added. I do think it’s a nice setup for what’s to come.
FRANK OZ: Yeah. It was too sudden and people didn’t know- but you know when you’re working so much and so closely, one loses perspective. So, it’s a joy to bring people like the Pennybakers and other people in the business that we know very well and they tell us. If they all tell us the same thing, then that must mean something.
Did you ever have a much longer version and you started refining and bringing it down- as you said, “Shaping the elephant”?
FRANK OZ: Yeah, we tried various things. We once tried chapters. So, one chapter would be on Jim, one chapter would be on performing, one chapter would be on the culture. We played around with that for a long time, and that didn’t work. So, we went back and made it one whole thing. Yeah, we played with a lot of different forms.
One of the things that I obviously- and I have heard this my entire life- about how amazing Jim was and how amazing Jim was to work with. But, seeing all of you talk about him just reaffirms what kind of leader he was, and what kind of visionary. Can you talk about Jim and why was he such a great leader and a great friend?
FRANK OZ: Well, he was a great leader because he wasn’t a leader. He didn’t lead, he just was himself. He didn’t tell us what to do, ever. We just- you have somebody who is as self-effacing, brilliant, as that, and somebody who’s as fair, and generous as that, it affects you. We all changed as a result of that-but not because he planned anything. Not because he studied how to manage people. Not because he felt that he had to act a certain way to be a leader. None of that. It was just- he was excited by projects. He loved people; he loved all the people there. He loved the whole Muppets. He would go down to the workshop and slap everybody’s back and loved talking to them, and loved talking to the writers. He genuinely being with people. So, there’s so much of Jim to say. As a friend, I don’t know, something clicked between us after a few years of me struggling to learn how to be a Muppet performer. After probably about ten years, it clicked where we just kind of would know each other so well- we would just look at each other and we’d know what the other person was thinking.
One of the things that I really liked was learning about how you guys would each attempt to make each other break when you were filming. Did anyone ever do anything really outrageous to try and get you to break? Or was it more just playful fun?
FRANK OZ: It was both. If we had an opportunity to break somebody up we would be very careful, though. We would do it in rehearsals because we know that was safe. We would do it at a point we knew, when we were shooting, when we knew it was safe because you have to judge property. If all of a sudden you’re in a role and you’re doing good work, you’re not going to screw the other guy up. You’re going to screw the other guy up when you know things are shaky. So, we all knew when to back off, but that didn’t stop us many times. For instance, look at the interviews inMuppet Guys Talking- there’s Billy doing this stupid fucking thing with a beard, that’s not his real beard, and somebody with lamp. That’s the stuff we would always do. If we wanted to, we’d bring in a cow puppet for no reason just to screw someone over. Yeah, we’d do everything. Whatever’s necessary- but we’d be very aware not to actually ruin a roll we were on to get a good take.
I completely get it. I want to jump backwards, and one of the other things I really enjoyed was seeing you guys talking about how you found the character; what you were doing or what you were thinking about. So, could you talk about when you were creating Fozzie or Grover, or any of the iconic characters you were involved with. Did you have a routine, or way of the genesis of a character? Or was each one completely different?
FRANK OZ: Each one was completely different. Grover just kind of came about organically- I don’t know how he came about. The more I performed him, the more he just turned out who he was. Although, we have lost parts of him over the years, but I know who he really is. Then, Fozzie was actually designed to be a second banana to Kermit inThe Muppets Show; a comedian who wasn’t funny. So, that was designed. What wasn’t designed, and I think I said that in theMuppet Guys Talking, was that he is insecure, very desperately insecure. Just being a second banana is not enough. That I felt really good about, but he really desperately needs that kind of comic laughter love, and that he desperately needs Kermit. Then, Bert is a whole other thing. Bert, I finally decided after about a year of being frustrated with him because he couldn’t do anything; he couldn’t move; he was so boring. I finally decided to make a very boring character. So, I used that weakness as a strength. I created all these things about Bert that were extraordinarily boring. (laughs) Each one has its own way of growing.
The other thing that I never even thought about, which again I learned in the documentary, is the secret to a great puppet is the construction.
FRANK OZ: Always. It’s so interesting.
I would have never thought that, but can you talk about that?
FRANK OZ: Yeah. The workshop- these are people- actually Rollie Krewson is still with them. Rollie as a workshop person is brilliant, and she was with Jim I think since 1970. She learned from Don Sahlin who started, and then there were very talented people there. They get a design from Jim, or whomever Jim asks to design the character, and Don, as I said in Muppet Guys Talking video, Don Sahlin had a special connection with Jim. Jim could just do a very simple sketch and Don could do it. There were sometimes more specific sketches, and specific drawings, and such, and measurements, and what they had to do- the workshop people- they had to get the spirit of that right. At the same time, they had to get the insides right. The insides, for us, are very important because we have to have a particular ridge of our thumb to work. We have to have particular room in the head for the other fingers to work. If there is a mechanism inside, we have to be able to reach that mechanism. On the outside, it’s got to look very simple.
I lovedThe Muppet Show. What do you think would surprise people to learn about the early days about making the show?
FRANK OZ: I think that early days was that we shot three or four shows and nobody saw them. We shot them before they were aired and we could not find guest stars. We had to get favors because nobody knew what the hell it was. For the first three or four shows, we were going blindly forward and hoping that what we were doing was good and funny. Only after we got the audiences, then did we get guest stars lining up to get on the show.
That’s so funny. I never would have thought about that, but yeah that makes complete sense.
FRANK OZ: Yeah. We had to actually reshoot a few things because by not having an audience we couldn’t really judge it as well. In general, it worked pretty well.
The other thing is, from what I remember and what I’ve seen, the show and a lot of the stuff with the Muppets was never written for kids. It was always written for adults and kids came along for the ride, or am I wrong about this.
FRANK OZ: Right. Absolutely right. That’s the thing. We were adults, we played with each other. We would never think about the kids, and I say that in the movie too aboutSesame Street. Sadly,Sesame Streethas changed now.Sesame Streetused to ride up two levels; an adult level and a kid level. Sadly, it is just riding on the kid’s level. I feel writing for kids is stupid. It’s truly stupid. How do we, as 30, 40, 50 year old people, know what kids like? We have no freakin’ idea.
I completely agree.
FRANK OZ: When I was a kid I didn’t know what I liked, so how would I know what a kid likes now at my age? It’s ridiculous. So, the idea of writing for children is totally bogus. The only thing that is not bogus about it is that if you’re writing for adults you can’t have profanity with kids, and you can’t get too complex in emotions and feelings because they are not developed enough. But other than that- no, we just played around. Sadly,Sesame Streethas abandoned that when it comes to a kids show.
It’s so weird because you make complete sense. I have no idea what an eight-year-old would like let alone a five-year-old.
FRANK OZ: When you’re eight and five you didn’t know yourself.
FRANK OZ: You react to something. You’d react to something that’s already been done. You don’t say, “I want this. I want them to have this kind of show.” No.
Completely. When you guys were writing that, and working on Muppets and everything else, were you ever watching kids to see the way they were playing or watching the show to see their reaction? Did that ever come up or not at all?
FRANK OZ: I never thought of kids for a moment. Not at all. That’s the research part. Unfortunately, the research has taken over now and the fun is not so much. No, we never for a second. The only time I thought about kids was when Grover worked with the kids, while the kids sat in the chair and we ad-libbed. That’s the only time. Even then, I didn’t treat them like kids.
I’m sure even then the kids never saw you, they just saw Grover.
FRANK OZ: Right.
There’s a line in the doc, that I think you say, that is, “To look good on screen, you’ve got to be uncomfortable down here.” It’s when you’re getting in a couch or under a couch, or something like that. I never thought about it- that obviously the people, the performers, would be incredibly uncomfortable. Also, in the doc there’s the story about the elevator fromThe Muppet Movie; how you thought everyone’s going to die doing this shot. It’s pretty crazy, some of the stuff that you guys went through to make the characters come to life.
FRANK OZ: Yeah, well that’s Jim. Nobody’s ever done that since Jim. Jim didDark Crystaltoo. Look at that. Nobody’s ever pushed the envelope as much as Jim has. He was just a very, very, singular human being.
Do you recall what’s the most uncomfortable position you ever did to make something work great on screen?
FRANK OZ: Well, not something great. Actually, you know it’s not the uncomfortableness- were constantly uncomfortable, that’s no problem. We’re used to that. We can stand the pain- we get it, we would do that for years. So, it’s not that. I’ll tell you, though, when I saw anybody performing puppets and they were comfortable, they were doing it wrong. They don’t have to be in an uncomfortable place- they can just be standing. If they’re comfortable standing, they’re doing it dead wrong. It’s just because their entire body should be braced to be the solid center of the character. That’s one thing that annoys me- to see people being comfortable. (laughs) As far as uncomfortable, there were so many times you were uncomfortable. I’ve said this before, Jim and I did a commercial when we were just starting out at the Houston Astro World, across from the Houston Astrodome. That was when Kenny Rogers was not Kenny Rogers, he was the first edition. (laughs) That was that far along. That’s when we were doing commercials- beforeSesame Streetwe did a lot of commercials.
We were supposed to be- there was a character called the Colonel, same Southern Colonel you saw inMuppet Guys Talking. The Southern Colonel was supposed to be in a barrel on this ghost town street. So, Jim and I- I’m 6’ 2” and Jim is 6’ 1”- we had to squeeze in this barrel. The two of us squeezed in with a tiny monitor, and we were more than sardines. What happened was, and what happens many, many times with Muppets- people don’t understand them- is we were rehearsing, and then we stopped and waited for the next take and nobody said anything. We were just sitting there, and it was completely quiet and we didn’t know what happened. We looked up, and everybody had gone to lunch and they never told us. (laughs) We couldn’t get out because we were so stuck, so we decided we had to rock it. So, we’d count and then we would rock left, rock right, rock left, rock right, and then we’d eventually fall over. Then, we crawled out with our legs completely numb.
I can’t imagine that. That might have been the day that Jim actually got mad.
FRANK OZ: (laughs) No he didn’t. He never got mad. That’s part of Jim. No, he never got mad. No.
That would have been a day that I would have gotten mad-
FRANK OZ: That stuff he never gets mad at. When he got mad, nobody else but us would know because he would be dead silent. That was anger for Jim. Dead silence. That really happened, only on a human level. When somebody did something that was hurtful on purpose, or some other thing that was more emotional or human. That’s when- betrayal or anything like that, that’s what got him. Everything else, no, everything else was fine.
That’s amazing. I wish I could have that temperament.
FRANK OZ: Yeah, no he laughed. That’s the thing, we learned from Jim. Before I joined Jim, I may not have laughed. Dave wouldn’t either, and other people, but because of Jim- he laughed and we laughed. That’s what we did for years. No matter what, we just enjoyed ourselves.
So, in the doc you talk aboutThe Muppet Moviesequence where the Muppets are climbing up the pole, and everyone is in an elevator type thing, and you’re like, “If one of these things falls, it’s game over.” At what point did you say, okay this is safe enough for me to get in? Was it one of those things were everyone’s a little bit nervous getting in this thing?
FRANK OZ: I’m not sure. I can’t speak for others. I know I was, but there were no safety checks. (laughs) We just went on good faith.
Oh my god. It’s so crazy. (laughs) It worked out. I’m switching a little bit- you’ve been enjoying Twitter now, for a little bit. How much are you enjoying interacting with fans and entering the social networking world?
FRANK OZ: Well, I’m really enjoying Twitter. I was shocked because for years I said I want nothing to do with social media. I’m still not on Facebook. I went on Twitter to helpThe Muppet Guys Talkingdoc, the movie. So, I can tell people about the movie. I’m just enjoying myself, and I don’t even talk about the movie, I just talk. (laughs). And I don’t want to. I’m too lazy; it’s too hard. So instead, I’m just talking to myself on Twitter and I’m having a great time.
So, there’s a production going on now and I’m curious if you have heard of it. It’s calledThe Happy Time Murders.It’s like an R-rated Muppet movie with Muppets.
FRANK OZ: That’s the thing that Brian Henson is doing right?
Yes. I was curious if you had heard about it, and I was curious what your thoughts were on it.
FRANK OZ: I heard he’s doing a movie and that’s about all I’ve heard.
Well, I don’t want to say too much because I’m not involved in the movie, but it’s an R-rated Muppet movie, where Muppets and humans live in the same world and I believe it is sort of a noir picture with a murder. It sounds very interesting to me, but it’s definitely a completely different take on Muppets and humans.
FRANK OZ: Well, I think if they’re new Muppets it would be appropriate for that. I think, with the classic characters I don’t know if it would be appropriate because they’re very pure hearted people. If they’re new characters, it might be great.
I believe it’s all new characters.
FRANK OZ: Well, that’s good. Then it might be terrific.
(laughs) I think it would be very weird to see Kermit show up in that world.
FRANK OZ: Yeah, but people think he can and that’s the problem. People sometimes don’t understand how to write for the Muppets, but in this particular case if it’s brand new Muppets, there’s no preconceived notion of them.
Completely. When you were handed a puppet, for character creation, when did you know when you were holding the puppet that it was perfect? That it was ready to go?
FRANK OZ: I never did. Never. You mean physically, how it was made?
I mean physically as well as when you found the character. You know, was there ever a point where you were rehearsing by yourself, trying to figure things out and you’re like this is it? I got it.
FRANK OZ: No. It never happened, because if I say I got it, then there’s no more room left to grow. If you’re asking did I get it and then grew, I didn’t even get that. It’s a process and there are no landmarks for me during that process of having it or not. It’s a continual process of growth of the character. So, I never had that, no.
I have to ask you, how does it feel to be connected to and have created some of the most iconic characters of all time? Do you ever take a step back and realize the influence you’ve had on countless generations? Is it too large to realize?
FRANK OZ: It’s too large to realize, I can’t grasp that. I deal with individuals and human beings- that’s why I love Twitter. I can actually talk to the fans and I love that. I can’t handle the “my characters are known in 100 countries,” that’s just too far. I can’t even grasp that, no. I just do what I love and try as a director, also, and do the very best I can. I never think of the larger. It’s not possible to put your arms around that.
I’ve spoken to some filmmakers when they’ve had a massive billion-dollar movie and they can’t comprehend it. It’s just too much.
